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BUCK Tyler
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 00:24    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I am all for this higher torque. With default Yaris '18 tarmac setup it feels better in most places, in general just giving more confidence. Braking sucks, feels like R5. For the hairpin people it should feel good but I prefer slightly looser, driving through the hairpin a bit more. Personally I probably won't end up with torque at 9000 and maybe not even 6000 but I will definitely be using much much more than previously allowed.

At the very least I think it's good to have this sort of flexibility in the setup. Previously you couldn't get the diff stiff enough to feel like R5 even if you wanted to.

EDIT: I just tested gravel also. Easily the best "feeling" WRC '17 spec car I've driven in any version. With 5000 torque the braking is not that bad but maybe could be better, and tight corners seem fine. I'm finally finding both the response and grip that I'm looking for. It seems the last update to physics found the key to tarmac and this Yaris has the found a key to '17 WRC. To think that it could be even better after adjusting a bit to my driving style gets me excited smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 03:14    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Yaris18 feels good with a lot of centre diff. But.. I don't know if its the tyre model, I still think the rear wheels drift just too uncontrollably, the car spins too easily, feels suddenly like a RWD, too "on ice". I don't think we should have to be putting so much counter steer to balance the car.
For example, WRCpuncture, in your last video, things look good, you do a nice clean series of hairpins - but if you take a closer look, there this last part of the hairpins where the rear just goes a bit too far, the car should go more in a straight line out of the hairpins in general. By the way, if you could do a short video in the uphill part of Cote with the consecutive hairpins would be useful. (cause really in a simple leveled hairpin the car is always catchable, its on uphill/downhill that things get messy)
Here´s a video taken from rally germany 2017, its just a hairpin to ilustrate what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yswm8R1GLlM

Having said this, I think this version shines in a lot of other departments, especially on gravel.
In my view, its in the subtle gradation between grip/no grip that this have to improve in general, theres still some way to go, hard to explain..
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 08:58    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Pedrodfa: yeah, I made video on wide clean road as I wanted to demonstrate behaviour of Fiesta in sliding after hanbrake. It is very well controlable now for me. Cote or Joux Verte need different aproach in term of hairpins, something as you post on real video. And thats the key of NGP6 for me. I can drift like a wild one hairpin, but in the next hairpin I can do a clean and fast drive. Now it is my choice more than before.

Maybe it would be good if you install gauger plugin and share video replays with gauges..than we can discuss more, maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe you.
(S**t, are we talking about hairpins again?biggrin sorry Bee, just reacting)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 10:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

i dont understand your problem. Im sure you be able to drive with toyota the hairpin as same as in video. maybe you need to tweak the setup a little bit.
uphill and downhill must be drive different than a even road. Uphill you got more load on the rear, dwnhill you got more on the front. if you care about this, you drive uphill more agressive into the corner and downhill more defensive. full steer and full throttle was the past for vanilla RBR.

My last tests shows me no wrong car behavior at hairpins (i make long wide drifts or narow 180° turns, they all looks ok. if i spun, i allways do something wrong. If i felt, the car oversteer to much, i lift the gas and never spun complete. Only if i stay on acceation, i was spun. That would i also expect in reality.

plase, make a replay and upload for us, than we can see whats going wrong for you. than we can take a look to your driving style or what can change for you on the setup. without a replay it makes no sense to discuss more about your wrong hairpin behavior.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 13:38    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

how can I install telemetry to see my inputs? I have been searching and couldn't find it. I know ngp records telemetry, but those gauges we see in replays on youtube, how can I have it in my replays?
It would be useful to see what am I doing wrong in these hairpins...
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 13:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

It would be great if simhub could work with NGP6.just like other sim racing game, assetto corsa, rfactor or something. maybe workerbee should contact the author of simhub?
 
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Lamda
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 14:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

gouges are clientsided plugins. you have to install it.
it will not saved at replay, you can only show it on your vidios.

you found the telemetry tool documentation at plugins folder (i thought it was in integrated at pacenottool folder)

telemetry files *.tsv can open with excel or open office as well. Ignuplot looks like the right program but i struggled to get an result. to complicated for me

Zitat:
It would be great if simhub could work with NGP6.just like other sim racing game, assetto corsa, rfactor or something. maybe worker bees should contact the author of simhub?


will never happend, because its a comercial additional dashbord. use the overlay plugins (google search "dashboard RBR" or "gauger plugin RBR")

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 14:33    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

How to use the telemetry feature.
Gnuplot version is old and installing guide is "lite", but I don't care wink

Download:
gp467-win64-setup.exe
sourceforge.net/projects/gnuplot/files/gnuplot/4.6.7/gp467-win64-setup.exe/download

Install:
gp467-win64-setup.exe

Select the language to use during the installation: English
OK ->

Next ->

I accept the agreement [x]
Next ->

Next ->

C:\Program Files\gnuplot
Next ->

gnuplot Core Components [x]
gnuplot Documentation [-]
gnuplot Demos [-]
Third Party Licence Information [-]
Japanise Language Support [-]
Next ->

Don't create a Start Menu folder [x]
Next ->

Create a desktop icon [-]
Don't change my GNUTERM enviroment variable [x]
Associate gnuplot with the .plt file extension [-]
Associate gnuplot with the .gp file extension [x]
Associate gnuplot with the .gpl file extension [-]
Associate gnuplot with the .dem file extension [-]
Add application directory to your PATH environment variable [-]
Next ->

Install ->

Next ->

View README-Windows.txt [-]
Launch gnuplot [-]

Finish ->

Open:
C:\Program Files\gnuplot\bin\pgnuplot.exe UPDATE: Use wgnuplot.exe instead

Write:
show loadpath
Enter ->

loadpath is empty
gnuplotrc is read from share

Write:
set loadpath 'C:\RichardBurnsRally\Plugins\PhysicsNG\scripts'
Enter ->

Write:
file='C:\RichardBurnsRally\Plugins\PhysicsNG\telemetry\ThisIsMyFileName.tsv'
Enter ->

Write:
load 'brakeDiskLayerTemps.gp'
Enter ->


Zuletzt bearbeitet von jansku22 am Mo Okt 07, 2019 16:20, insgesamt 2-mal bearbeitet
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 15:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New version 6.0.744.409 available:
* fixed diff mapping dialog
It turned out that it was a simple typo deep in one of my source files, but the issue was somehow hard to reproduce.
Should be fine now.
Physics and revision unchanged !


All WRC '17 cars updated:
* allow more center locking torque (max. 6000 Nm).
Setups adjusted.

I will update the Xsara and C4 later, as these have also an active center.


About the NGP telemetry recorder.
Gnuplot is the way to go, version 5.2.7 seems to be the latest version.
Don't bother with Office, as the files and data are too big.
Maybe someone would like to do a tutorial video ?
Once installed and getting used to, it is really easy to use.

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Dennis Zetak
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 15:26    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Really nice to drive a Toyota .. Center lock torque is 8000nm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhoLRbxrcIU
 
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BUCK Tyler
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 16:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

For those that want to load the provided telemetry scripts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxkZIu2JgWQ

As you can see from the gnuplot console output, it's the mostly same as jansku describes. Only more mouse clicking and more visual.
 
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Dennis Zetak
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 16:45    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Today I launch a telemetry via gnuplot and try quicky a new version of physics (6.0.744.409), car Toyota Yaris WRC and track Ai Petri (because of lenght - 17km). I was suprised, when I opened a telemetry and saw tyre wear, temps, pressures, brake wear, temps and engine temps. This year on July I started a european hill climb race, when I talk about tyre pressures with Tomas Ondrej (this week he started at Slovakia Rally Trebišov with Ford Fiesta WRC 2015). I told him, that Im afraid of my pressure, because on start I had 1,8bar in front tyres and 1,7 on rear tyres and in finish, after 7km I was on 2,3bar front and 2,1bar rear. He told me, its not strange, its ok. When he started Rally Roznava (on ending March tarmac maybe 20-25°C) with Skoda Fabia WRC on SS Uhorna (11km, very bumpy, damaged tarmac), he use Michelin pilot sport tyres "18 hard compound, he had on start 1,8 bar and in finish it was on 2,8 - 3,0 bar. After first section, there was 3 stages (i looked back and it was 36km), he must change all tyres, because after a damaged tarmac it was dead. Maybe it has 30-40% left, but it has very low grip.
When you look at a picture, where is graphs with tyres, there are very low tyre wearing and very low rising temps and (mainly) pressure in tyres.

If you are looking on brakes, the temps are very low too. Race brakes and brake pads works maybe in 300-800° window. And what I saw, there is no brake wearing.

Engine is too cold, 78°C is not like a real, but in RBR it has maybe no effect for power or other things.

Please Bee, dont be angry, its just my feedback and explain some from my experiences.

https://i.imgur.com/W4JFsXm.png
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 19:31    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Some hairpins with the Yaris, centre diff around 8500nm. Better, but still a little bit too much oversteer at the exit, or under steer as well, because it’s hard to maintain it in the perfect zone, I mean that zone is quite small, in my view it should be a bit bigger.
Also sometimes it feels better doing them in 2nd gear..
Video:
https://youtu.be/iB7PkY55uA0
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 20:12    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
Today I launch a telemetry via gnuplot and try quicky a new version of physics (6.0.744.409), car Toyota Yaris WRC and track Ai Petri (because of lenght - 17km). I was suprised, when I opened a telemetry and saw tyre wear, temps, pressures, brake wear, temps and engine temps. This year on July I started a european hill climb race, when I talk about tyre pressures with Tomas Ondrej (this week he started at Slovakia Rally Trebišov with Ford Fiesta WRC 2015). I told him, that Im afraid of my pressure, because on start I had 1,8bar in front tyres and 1,7 on rear tyres and in finish, after 7km I was on 2,3bar front and 2,1bar rear. He told me, its not strange, its ok. When he started Rally Roznava (on ending March tarmac maybe 20-25°C) with Skoda Fabia WRC on SS Uhorna (11km, very bumpy, damaged tarmac), he use Michelin pilot sport tyres "18 hard compound, he had on start 1,8 bar and in finish it was on 2,8 - 3,0 bar. After first section, there was 3 stages (i looked back and it was 36km), he must change all tyres, because after a damaged tarmac it was dead. Maybe it has 30-40% left, but it has very low grip.
When you look at a picture, where is graphs with tyres, there are very low tyre wearing and very low rising temps and (mainly) pressure in tyres.

If you are looking on brakes, the temps are very low too. Race brakes and brake pads works maybe in 300-800° window. And what I saw, there is no brake wearing.

Engine is too cold, 78°C is not like a real, but in RBR it has maybe no effect for power or other things.

Please Bee, dont be angry, its just my feedback and explain some from my experiences.

https://i.imgur.com/W4JFsXm.png


Dennis, you are looking at the wrong values.
The engine temperature is in the vicinity of 120 to 150 degrees, which is correct.
The 80 something degrees is the radiator temp, which is correct due to the fan.

The actual brake pad / brake disc surface temps are in the vicinity of the real world counterparts from Brembo, Pagid and the like.
There is brake wear, but the stages in RBR are so short that you would anyway never be affected.
Apart from maybe in the online plugin you would not be able to repair them.

Tyre temps really depend on the compound. I could model any in RBR, but testing this takes way too much time.
Sorry for that.

And yes, I am a little bit angry, as again you make me look like a complete idiot, not knowing about real world brake pad temperature operating windows.
That's just sad ... sad

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Dennis Zetak
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 21:09    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

So the tyre model isnt finished and then tyre pressures values on setup do nothing. When you want to work on tyre model, you can write me anytime, I'm very interest for this things, because this ngp physics goes way, that it's not all about drive, it's about car management too and I really like it.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 22:06    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hi Workerbee , I know I have reported this before the ngp6 come out, and is just a "reminder" so when you can maybe take a look at it, because its the only thing I can consider a "bug".

" There is just one thing that feels "weird", when upshifting it creates this weird longitudinal slip, like a foward movement, exactly the same as powershifting a h-pattern car. Both the upshifts feels to quick, and creates this strange slip, its very noticeable in the lower gears and speally with rwd and fwd, and is possible to see with telemetry, and feel it in the ffbm special in the middle of corners

Is it possible to adjust in the physics, the "ignition cut" and the time shifting requires ?

edit: I have the feeling that in every upshift it never cuts the power from the engine, so they are all like "powershifts" "
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Sep 02, 2019 23:33    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: Thank you for the last update! smile What a job you are doing..exciting. But I can't find a DONATE button?! Embarassed respekt
I tested a bit the updated centre diff and it made a real difference. I think this was very good note from Lamda. Now I can really feel the "power" of centre diff. Are you planning to add this also for N4/R4 cars? I think it will make them even better. Sometimes I miss more diff power in Evo IX, but I don't know if it is due to differential or just setup...so it's up to you smile

pedrodfa: Good video, but I see nothing wrong.. the "zone" you are talking about seems exactly as it should be. Sometimes not easy, but well driveable. Timing is still crucial for handbrake, countersteering and throttle. So now it is just about our driving and setup. howgh

Dennis: I know that purpose of NGP6 is reality and seems that Bee doing everything to achieve it. And IMHO he's doing really well!
But does your comment make sense? for example as far as I know, we can't set air/road temperature (fortunately).. We have hard/medium/soft tyres and ideal conditions with (I guess) non ideal surface (polygons etc.). So yeah, in term of tyres it can't be totally real. Because even the best race simulators aren't.


Guys, please, test more and often. Now it's more like driving a real car. You need to know and understand the car. You need lots of kilometres and own setup for a great feel. Please, take a time for testing, make a setup, next day try it again... It's not like: 2x Cote and: crap, something is wrong, remake it. Peace:-)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Sep 03, 2019 04:00    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

To take advantage of the temeletry, I attached pictures of telemetry from the wheels speed from a fiesta r2 and i20 r5, to see the spikes created when upshifting, and its noticeable how much more effects fwd vs awd. I believe this doesn't happen with vanilla rbr

Thank you both BUCK Tyler and jansku22 for helping with the gnuplot. And ofcourse if someone as gnuplot cool scripts you can always share smile


https://imgur.com/lzmhnUlhttps://imgur.com/TUvd92e
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Sep 03, 2019 06:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
So the tyre model isnt finished and then tyre pressures values on setup do nothing.


That's nonsense. Tyre pressure has several effects.

The tyre model is finished !

There is not only "one" tyre temperature, there are several zones, each with it's own temp and exchanging heat with the other zones and/or the ambient.

Temp affects pressure, using the ideal gas law.

Tyres and brakes also use several other equations for heat exchange (convection, conduction, radiation).

So, it simulates the real thing.

And every temperature, pressure and other stuff affects performance (engine, tyres, brakes).

Guys, I am beginning to get tired of this discussion.
If you like NGP, fine, if you don't, go ahead and don't waste my time.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Sep 03, 2019 20:52    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Updated car physics (locking torque of active center diff):

Subaru Impreza N15 R4
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX N4
Citroen C4 WRC 2008
Citroen Xsara WRC 2006

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Sep 04, 2019 13:17    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@ Workerbee: I dont understand what you want, one time you complain about noone would like give feedback about some new features, another time you kick somone in ass because they want see and understand the Details of NGP backrounds and want use the tools as you made for.

Zitat:
for example as far as I know, we can't set air/road temperature (fortunately).. We have hard/medium/soft tyres and ideal conditions with (I guess) non ideal surface (polygons etc.).
I agree, for all comperation we want do, we must also think about not comparing "special " conditions with RBR behavior. But a compareable average should be possible with NGP. We dont need all the small pieces with less impact, it doest matter because RBR Tracks are less detailed than reality. but RBR can simulate much more technical details than other games,

The hairpin "Problem": in this case, the toyota is a neutral balanced car, is your behavior not bad. In fact you drive (on cote ) steep uphill and have narrow (slowspeed) corner on surface with maximum possible grip. for handbrake turns with sliding the worst situation

I try myself, but i got sometimes problems with the right accelation. during drift the car stalling on turn out a little bit. But your Video shows, it is possible to drive without staling and with drifting oversteered car.

I think you can do it still better, if you set your braking balance a little bit more to the rear and left the brake a litte bit earlier than before. I see sometimes blocking tyres at front, which will result in to understeer (you also get light understeer if you braking close to blocking tyres)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Sep 04, 2019 19:14    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I tested more today. What I really love about NGP6 is noticeable diferences between car in one class. for example the "wrc17" cars feel similar and different at the same time. I prefer Fiesta19 mostly, but it is just my feel so everyone can choose the car which suits them.
Same for previous wrc generation. Hope we will get also more old wrc and gr.A cars later:-)

Now, I don't know what to say. I didn't notice any problems, any bugs or strange behaviour. Maybe in a few days there will appear some problems, but now..I really dont know..it is true that I test mostly dry surfaces.

PS: I stopped playing RBR few years ago because of another simulators. RBR felt little bit "weird" for me even I played it a long time. In almost every sim there is some feeling of similarity, every sim need special aproach, but in the end, they are similars. RBR was always quite different and thats why I love NGP6. It is more real than ever before and I can much more easily adapt from another sims. Engine maps, brakes, weight transfer, grip, FFB etc..everything is on right place and it feels natural.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Sep 04, 2019 20:48    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lambda: thanks for the tips. I will try to test more setups. Unfortunately my brake pedal (g27) has really shitty potentiometers right now (I had to replace the originals) and so sometimes on tarmac I block the front wheels.. I’m on the search now for some nice potentiometers or new pedals..

workerbee: I’m one of the few people here that have been complaining sometimes but in general I really think ngp6 at this point is really good and it’s a silent revolution in rbr (I also think that the people who complained helped you having more feedback). I’m very thankful for your work and knowledge, and particularly your aproach to it being a comunal thing and not a comercial one. (Even though it would also be great to have a completely new comercial rally sim with you in the physics department :)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Sep 04, 2019 22:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: I have a question about active centre diff.
The manual says: the ECU always looks for the highest locking figure of the throttle, brake or speed maps and uses those settings.

So if I have 0% locking for ALL values in speed map, I have open centre diff when coasting? (no throttle, no brake)
So the brake map in active diff works only and strictly for brake input. Am I right?

I know that mechanical front or rear diff works slightly different - there is coast lock, which is aplied for both - braking and coasting.
But I'm not sure in case of active. I quite know how it works in real life, but we have simplified version, so just asking..
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Sep 05, 2019 06:03    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
WorkerBee: I have a question about active centre diff.
The manual says: the ECU always looks for the highest locking figure of the throttle, brake or speed maps and uses those settings.

So if I have 0% locking for ALL values in speed map, I have open centre diff when coasting? (no throttle, no brake)
So the brake map in active diff works only and strictly for brake input. Am I right?


Correct.
The manual still applies here.
The highest value wins.

That's why usually you won't use the speed map.

Yes, we do have only a simplified implementation of an active diff.
Maybe back in 2004 this was very accurate, as Richard may have given the developers some input.
On the other hand, if you make things too complicated, no one would understand.

_________________
NGP 6 - It Doesn’t Just Raise the Bar, It is the Bar!
 
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