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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Aug 28, 2019 13:22    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I had same intention as you, i try out center diff maping 100% and inertia max 1200Nm, rear diff 75%. it working not as good as i expected. i only get oversteer by braking but not by weight transfer during driving the corner without a initial brake.
if you oversteer till turn in, the car slides much without any other initial (only with engine brake) and your engine revolution is realy down. If the slide ends and you accelate, its need some time to speed up. that could be feel rough ending slide (but real drivers can force accelation more early and can push with light spinning tyres)
maybe that is the reason, why some feel bad with oversteer on handbrake because they pull it to long. but, if you pull only a short time, you slide to less. Normaly you can accelate to extend the slide with spinning tyres but it will stall by understeer behavior (you will get havy understeer because front slides first on accelation)

If you have mostly a understeer feeling, you dont know right when you need to accelate and how much you need accelate on turn out. I dont know the real reason, i can imagion its only a small piece to change

@wrcPuncture feel free to send me examples or setups for testing

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Aug 29, 2019 00:53    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Gentlemen..To be honest, I'm little bit confused now. I tested Fiesta 19 today. For most tarmac corners it feels great for me, as whole NGP6.
I can play with oversteer or understeer by setup, change driving style etc. The feel is real.

But the tarmac hairpins.. I still don't know. Yeah, sometimes I do excelent hairpin, but most time it scares me and I'm afraid what happens next. I know that it is not so easy in real life, we can't feel the moment when rear starts sliding, we have bad FOV etc., but I have load cell handbrake and in most sims/games (I mean Assetto, Automobilista, LFS,..) I can make a good hairpin turn with almost every car.
I drove for quite a while EVO IX in real life (I know, that there is huge diference between stock car and rally car) and it allowed me "long" handbrake, full throttle and just steer the car into desired direction. Seems that NGP6 EVO IX can make it very well and similarly. But WRC cars not for me. I know there is different weight distribution, weight transfer, grip etc. But why it is so unpredictable compared with NGP5 and older?

Bee, can you help us a little with this please? Maybe some tips for setups? Maybe some video how you do that? I think we all want to learn, to cooperate on this BEST project, to share experiences and suggestion.

I watched some real videos WITHOUT top 10 drivers and it seems that even "average" rally driver in wrc car can push handbrake and control slide with throttle and steering.

I'm testing NGP6 a lot and step by step I'm learning how to drive it. So in the end, it is not so bad with hairpins and handbrake for me. But to be honest, I don't know what average drivers on plugin will say to this.
Who cares? No one (cause we want reality)..but maybe everyone..

anyway, Bee, please don't take it as criticism. I love NGP6 ! I just want to understand more smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Aug 29, 2019 20:37    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New cars available:

* Citroen C3 WRC 2017, model updated to Citroen C3 WRC V1.3 by DMRally74 (remember to replace the old one!!)

* Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC 2017

* Toyota Yaris WRC 2017

NGP6 plugin updated to version 6.0.744.408
* more driver friendly tarmac

RBRCIT/carList.ini updated.

Feel free to test.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Aug 29, 2019 21:34    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

FYI, there is a 2018 version of the Yaris model:

http://forum.rallyesim.fr/viewtopic.php?f=444&t=25908
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Aug 29, 2019 21:55    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I have to say I'm having blast with ngp6, I'm addicted !
For example I could never drive fwd cars in this game, never felt right .. Don't know why.. But now having a blast with the r2's, the r5's are awesome, wrc's are still to fast for me tongue
Now I feel more what the car is doing, it as better ffb, is more predictable, and above all you can feel a lot the diference between driving on the "limit", and drinving a couple clicks more safer, so its possible to manage the rhythm a lot better. I guess that before was always a felt a bit vague what the car was doing, a bit of guess game.
Loving to put the kilometers under the belt with the new physics and thank your for dedication !
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Aug 29, 2019 22:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Nice job Bee but I don't understand why Toyota Yaris 2017 instead of 2018 model? cry
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 00:30    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Definitely in tarmac stages it as a bit more grip now, maybe to much.. Only tried the fiesta r2 and the skoda r5.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 01:14    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

To be honest I think the Bee has found the golden ticket with this latest update. I was only able to spend a short amount of time with this and only tested WRC '17 but my impression is that it is much better. I was enjoying the driving.

To test this new version I went straight to Stryckovy - Zadni Porici because I have been testing here for upcoming Czech rally with NGP 5. I have had problems here with the first jump, if you do anything other than full throttle sometimes the rear overtakes you on landing as if the diff was too loose. Also the left hand corner right after it. Always washing out here and getting killed if I try to push at all. And then the right handing corner that tightens into the square/hairpin left around the tire barrel. Usually I'm washing out and having terrible feeling when pushing through this right hander. I didn't have any of these problems with this latest update.

Previously the car would give me a false sense of confidence and I would start pushing but then the car would try to kill me without warning. This time I was pushing and the car was predictable and never gave me a reason to expect otherwise. To top this off, I tried Joux Verte to see what was going on with these hairpins. No problem. When I slightly over drove I was able to catch the spin before it got completely out of control.

Nice job. Also I always forget about the changes to wrong tire/surface combos until I hit gravel with tarmac tires and it is a pleasant surprise.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 11:23    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I found a new intersting article from 2018 about WRC and there car technology.

I wrote at last much about understeer behavor on accelation. It feels with NGP, the center diff can only change torque more to front until a maximum of 50:50. in the articel was spoken that allways a split more to rear is prefered.

Racecar engineering Nov. 2018 "Fantastic Four"
Citroen:
Zitat:
Citroen has already homologated the
maximum of two centre differential front/rear
torque split ratios. The ratio used on all of its cars
is 48/52 per cent while the ratio on the previous
generation of WRC Citroen was 36/64 per cent.
‘On tarmac the ratio we use is okay, but we
could change, using a joker,’ Budar says, hinting
at a revised gravel torque split.


Huyndai:
Zitat:
The original homologated centre differential
front/rear torque split is 43 per cent/57 per
cent, but an alternative was homologated in
April. This is biased more to the rear with a
37 per cent/63 per cent ratio


I think this would be count exact with a less understeer/more oversteer reaction on accelation (turn out) and more agility on fast sections (more difficult to drive there)

i think it will also help to avoid the strange handbrake sliding behavor, because you will need less blocked tyres initial because you can more play with accelation without a "straight push" behavor of 50:50 split. You also not stall because you accelate further on drifting

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 17:39    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Considering the WRC teams can't even decide which torque split or aero balance they want, would it make sense to allow these to be changed as part of the setup? Even just a few different values to chose from for torque split and aero balance would be nice.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 21:23    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

BUCK Tyler hat folgendes geschrieben:
Considering the WRC teams can't even decide which torque split or aero balance they want, would it make sense to allow these to be changed as part of the setup? Even just a few different values to chose from for torque split and aero balance would be nice.


Not in this release.

I gave you the adjustable handbrake, and the response was quite disappointing, wasn't it ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 22:17    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Last update seems a step in the right direction but not yet realistic in the hairpin department, or whenever the car breaks traction .Maybe a bit more in this direction...
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Aug 30, 2019 22:25    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
I gave you the adjustable handbrake, and the response was quite disappointing, wasn't it ?


Maybe you've got me confused with someone else because you didn't add that for me lol

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
or whenever the car breaks traction


This latest update even the RWD cars (yes the RGT included) are feeling good to me... https://streamable.com/7v4kq
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Aug 31, 2019 01:10    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Pedrofa: can you specify it? Because even I was one of who complain about hairpins, it seems it is completely solved now. Maybe can you make a video with your problems? I'm pretty sure that if there is problem with hairpins now, it is caused just by your/our input.

I tested Fiesta 19, C3, Yaris, DS3 and 555 today. Specially for tarmac hairpins or to be precise, handling in sliding. I used my setups from previous physics version and it works really great! Joux Verte no problem, Sturec no problem, Luceram no problem...
For me it is right direction. Still - I have to be precise, timing is still crucial, sometimes I spin, but now I can manage it by throttle and countersteering quite well. I feel more confidence and certainty now. I feel like I'm more driving than reacting to car - to losing rear.
One short video: https://youtu.be/4EyxsNv5TCE
(yeah, another video..bla bla..but how can we compare whether it behaves realistically or not? If no one of us drive a WRC car? So I'm just trying to put same input as real drivers and then see what happens)

So, I cannot say anything.. good bye hairpin "off"topic. What a GREAT JOB, WorkerBee!

feelings after last update: Simply, the best version for me! It feels like there is more tarmac grip now. I don't know if it is true, but feelings are great. There is predictable grip, but when car loose it, I can manage it better, mainly the rear part of car. I can trust to the car and I feel diference between grip/slide better. As BUCK Tyler stated, there is true sense of confidence and thats what I expect from rally car.

I tested also gravel and snow, and there it feels like there is also more grip, but I'm not sure. And if yes, I'm not sure if previous version wasn't better in terms of gravel/snow. Has anything changed in the latest version about gravel and snow?.. I have to test it more. Maybe it is just first feelings, so don't take it literally.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Aug 31, 2019 04:17    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

This may sound stupid.. but how can I use the new telemetry feature?
We can active it in the NGP plugin, but where are the files save? how can we use the data record, is possible to use with some kind of software? to like compare drinving techniques, ride heights etc

I would say that with the last update it as more grip but is definitely more perdictable in tarmac, you can feel confidence with the car like wrcpuncture said. That feeling of being always on the edge and not in control even when not pushing too hard is long gone(previous ngp versions), its just a lot easy to keep a certain rhythem during the stage and feel in control. And to be honest I cant feel anything wrong when sliding in hairpins etc.. its actually a blast to drift r5's and the wrc's, but of course is not even close to "perfect" slides all the time, and the grip available changes from stage to stage what is sometimes hard to adapt.

Also I feel some difference in the garvel, and I have to say that previous build felt spot on! mainly the way the car regains grip during the slides, before was more smoth and natural, now regains grip on a greater angle, so the slide its not as smoth.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Aug 31, 2019 13:01    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

See readme.txt for how to handle telemetry. Won't repeat it here.

************

Guys, only tarmac has been changed.

gravel/snow unchanged, because them already were perfect.
Nobody complained about that, so why should I change it ?

Maybe it "feels" different after driving the new tarmac thing.
But that's a nocebo effect.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Aug 31, 2019 14:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

it can be opened by program, it calls "gnuplot" but I really dont know how...
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Aug 31, 2019 19:05    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
If you have mostly a understeer feeling, you dont know right when you need to accelate and how much you need accelate on turn out.


there is something wrong with fiesta itself, i try out the huyndai WRC with basic setup, in this case all working fine as i would expected (i do only a quick test for the hyundai).
if i steer and accelate full, i feel the pull to the inner corner. i can over do it with a ending in to a spin (impossible with Fiesta)

on jumpstart i see both tyres spinning fast, i can not see a big difference between tyre speed

on Fiesta, with jump start allways front tyres spinning much more than rear tyres. i tryed crazy settings with the center diff map (all 0%, all 100% lock on accelation) with allways same result, that cant be right.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Aug 31, 2019 20:29    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Please double check your installation.

The physics revision of the Fiesta WRC 2019 should read:
revision 2 / 2019-08-26

I re-checked the files, everything should be fine.
The uploaded files represent exactly what I have modeled.

Why don't you just admit that this car does not suite your driving style ?!

Because the new WRC cars are quite similar, but not the same, I have created all of them, so that everybody can choose the one which fits him best.
Simple as that.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Sep 01, 2019 08:57    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New car available (replaces 2017 physics AND model !!):

* Toyota Yaris WRC 2018 (model by Alex Racer)

This one has an interesting damage model, I really like it !
Well done, Alex.

After all this front wheels spinning or not spinning mess I have decided to increase the allowed locking torque of the center diff.
The updated setups already reflect this.

Feel free to test.

The other WRCs will be updated in a short time (after some feedback).

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Sep 01, 2019 11:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hello everyone,
as all know, I'm not the limit value driver, ... but in the Yaris I felt strangely comfortable immediately.

The car does, with standard setup, pretty much what I expect when I give it various inputs.
Steering, brake, acceleration ...

Very good job - thanks Workerbee for the physics & Alex Racer for the model.
respekt top !

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Sep 01, 2019 12:00    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I try to do a donuts, because I want to see a skidmarks from tyres. That skidmarks shows only on some sections of asphalt, I dont know why. And look at that pictures, its very square, is it good?

Anyway, I tried some cars after update physics, tyre model or what was that. I have some experience from real life, I tested C2 R2 max and with Fabia R2 I finished one race. On RBR NGP 6 I tested Peugeot 208 R2 and it is really big pleasure to drive this car after update tyres. I can go anywhere on handbrake, like a Ragnotti. Suspensions works very well, overall grip is well too, so I wouldnt change anything on this car. Same is with Xsara WRC. Best car on NGP 6 I think. This center diff feels great !! Also big pleasure to drive this. R5 is like a on rails, big grip there, but in real life what I can see its same. Suspensions goes very smooth, very likely. Subaru 555 works well too, it was good before update too. I was very afraid from Fiat 124 rgt, it was undriveable before update.. Now, after change of tyres model, it behaves pretty well, I can go on very sharp hairpins on handbrake, got a countersteer and continues well. Almost like my old E30 in real biggrin
In couple of last days Bee you did a very great job. Now I dont test a new Yaris, but im now sure, that it would be a really special car and very good to drive. Thank you for your big work and for listening our feedbacks.


https://imgur.com/iRtNtE8

https://imgur.com/kmhXmIG

https://imgur.com/deaDFT4
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Sep 01, 2019 15:08    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
I gave you the adjustable handbrake
i allways use it and set it between 80% and 90% with aditional filter setting i have (normaly) a good control on handbrake turns (diggital Handbrake, i use my left paddle for it, for gear change i use seperate sequential gearbox)


i checked fiasta physic sata, it was the right one, updated with cit. no problems shown on the menue too

Zitat:
Why don't you just admit that this car does not suite your driving style ?!


i do not care about my own driving style. I want a real behavior and its possibilitys. The behavior for own driving style should finishable with setup. If the reality (car) dont match with my prefered style, i will not drive it virtual on tournaments later. But i think im able to reproduce not prefered driving styles too. my goal is if i compare (real) video and replay and it match 100%, than its right. in past i learn in this way many ways to force a special car reaction or how can i change the setup for a special behavior.
For a understeer behavior you can set some values to get it ( decrease rear differential lock; increase front anti roll bar; set front suspension stiffer and few more) but without the right center diff behavior you are not able to get oversteer on accelation, there no other option to generate this. All what you need is the possibillity to get a (virtualy) car like the counterpart of reality, that should the goal for NGP (and im sure, RBR have the possibilitys and the right men to get it realy close to reality).

Some statements for the new generation WRC cars:

...Neuville had fight in 2018 with light to much understeer becaus of huyndai have the longest wheelbase. ...much experiments with the right split torque on center diff...
own opinion: it looks like fixed but the cor shows fast and stable on fast section but not so agile on tricky curve sections

Toyota: ...less movement agile because of aero kit very stable but neutrally behavior. ...Much change for 2019 planned to make it more agile...
own opinion: looks they have done, actual similar behavior than huyndai

Citroen: orgier says, "the understeer behavior is impossible to drive" (before the last day of rally Germany)
own opinion: the videos show it too. the citroen is actual more the NGP fiesta. but im sure there will change this for next tarmac rally.

Fiesta: no statements found
own opinion: on videos it shows, the fiesta is the most wild and agile car. its looks like it is often hard to control with "bitchy" behavior

in the reality the differences are not so much. in NGP it is good, that we (driver) can feel the differences. But it looks like your forced differences have more impact for drivers than you expect yourself.

Neuville says after sweden 2018, the weight of 2nd spare wheel and the snow on the car makes the car near uncontrollable. what is it in numbers? 1% weight change to rear? Sometimes less is more. Or if you want force something, ask directly the driver if it feel as you want force.

And a good statement from the chief engineer of huyndai:
Zitat:
He (Neuville) didn’t like it, which is
always a nightmare with drivers; they like cars
that are easy to drive whereas the fastest cars
are probably not that easy to drive.


Zitat:
....you need to translate what the driver describe...





Zitat:
I try to do a donuts, because I want to see a skidmarks from tyres. That skidmarks shows only on some sections of asphalt, I dont know why. And look at that pictures, its very square, is it good?
i think it doesnt matter, will be only a graphic issue. try it out, with pacenote tool, you can set a cam from above, so you can see of the care slides "square"
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Sep 01, 2019 17:31    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Ich habe einen Fehler in der Menüansicht gefunden. Wenn man ein setup gespeichert hat, sieht es danach dann so aus (beim Mittendifferential ähnlich)

Klicke auf das Bild um das Bild in der Originalgröße zu öffnen.


die entscheidenden parameter kann man noch sehen, deshalb ist es nicht wild.

Zitat:
After all this front wheels spinning or not spinning mess I have decided to increase the allowed locking torque of the center diff.
The updated setups already reflect this.

it is only a internal change isnt it?

i test the yaris a lot more on Tarmac
I like the yaris behavior on tarmac, it matched not to my favorite driving style but i can feel the working "missing link from past". You are not able to oversteer on turn out without any initial (weight transfer to rear with braking or a kick in steering on turn in). So this car is near full balanced for corner. its near enough you can force a understeered car or a oversteered car with other setup possibillitys.

first time i can make a realy long drifts (balanced by combination of accelation and steering) on the long wide corner of castrazzo with an WRC car, it is a great feeling

no problems with handbrake and a resulting heavy oversteer, working very well for me (but its not easy, i must learn the timing i bit more). Sometimes i got a half spin but allways i know i do something wrong (pull handbrake to long or accelate to early and/or to much)

the other behavor for example on chicanes (car reaction in order of wight movement) feels right an look similar as in real video (you allways get light kicking in the ass (rear) if you are hard/wild in)

i have nothing in mind, what need to change for this car if the described behavior above is same forced by you.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Sep 01, 2019 18:30    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I only did realize the messed up dialog with the FWD slot.
But I was not able to find the reason, as this would take several days of investigation.
Basically I know what happens, the translated texts get somehow lost, but I don't know where. wink

@skidmarks
As far as I remember the update frequency does not match the physics, so the skid marks, as well as the particles (? not sure about that), look a bit weird, to put it mildly.
But ... usually you don't realize this, as when driven normally at a stage, the marks look "ok/acceptable".
Actually I tried to improve the skidmarks, but memory consumption and that stuff was not acceptable, so I gave up for the moment.
Hey, if you want visuals, play Dirt ... wink

@center diff locking torque
I just increased the allowed torque, as the previous limit seemed too low, depending on the car.
No big improvement I would be especially proud of ...


Basically I do not "force" any car behavior. This would end in a mess (see Dirt XXX series).
And yes, I know the comments from the real world drivers.
It is the same as it is here, if someone says "undriveable" this just means he can't push as before without hitting the trees nearby. smile

I do not make cars within a class arbitrarily different.
This is all due to the simulation.
The more you simulate, the more differences.
That was the goal of NGP6.


Look at vanilla RBR: only active diffs, FWD buggy, no RWD, short cuts in tyre/surface model.
Good as a base for an engineer, but lots of room for improvement.
I still do not understand why anyone would prefer vanilla over NGP.
Must be dickheads.

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